I have a J and J Bavaria 40 from 2003 and I am considering, on lift out this year, replacing the saildrive seal. Access to both sides and the front of the engine is very good, however, there is no access from the stern where the sail drive is! Clearly I need to move the engine forwards to disengage the gearbox from the saildrive, however, I have the horrible sinking feeling the engine will need to be removed entirely to gain enough access to lift the sail drive out. It's been about 10 years now since it was last replaced... part of me is keen to ignore it and keep sailing. It certainly doesn't leak, however, part of me wants to do the job if only to know how its done and gain that skill.
Has anyone undertaken this job on a J and J boat with a similar configuration?
(Photos of access will follow!)
Hope everyone had a good Christmas.
It is an easy job on a 40cc 2001 . I have done it twice, but then the centre cockpit version has very good rear engine access. The engine has to move at least 3 or 4in, but if it could be moved more it would make rear access easier .Geoff
I changed the seal on my YR2000 B36 which I suspect has a similar layout to yours and was surprised at just how easy it was. The last time I change a seal it was on a 26ft boat and access to the sail drive was only possible by squeezing into a narrow cockpit locker upside down and I still bear the scars!
I found that creating sensible work room is key to making it as easy as possible so I built a timber frame to sit in front of the engine, with the top surface level with the bearers and greased. After disconnecting the sail drive from the back of the engine I was then able to safely and easily pull the engine right out into the cabin. This then left the whole engine bay clear to be able to lift the sail drive up and in at the necessary angle but note you need to remove the prop first as it will not pass through the hole and if the height clearance is like mine, the prop shaft and lower bearing housing, which I planned to do anyway as I wanted to change the seals.
I did it single handed and I didn't feel that another pair of hands would have made much difference other than pulling the engine out/back in as there is only really space for one person to work below.
Great idea using this wooden rack !
Love the rack concept just taking our engine out today and its a nightmare. Can I ask what depth you built your frame to please have a Bav 38 from 2000
Now into getting the saildrive out to change the lower seals
Thanks
If by depth you mean the length from front to back, this was the overall length of the engine plus sufficient clearance to be able to pass the sail drive out of the engine bay, although I realised that there is enough room to pass it out through one of the side access panels.
Quote from: HONEY COMB on January 03 2023, 21:44
Love the rack concept just taking our engine out today and its a nightmare. Can I ask what depth you built your frame to please have a Bav 38 from 2000
Now into getting the saildrive out to change the lower seals
Thanks
You don't need to remove the drive to replace the lower seals, only the diaphragm where the drive goes through the hull
That really is a great idea thank you! And I thought as much, that I would need to move it a long way forward. Are there casters on the bottom of it?
Quote from: Stevie H on January 02 2023, 16:46
I changed the seal on my YR2000 B36 which I suspect has a similar layout to yours and was surprised at just how easy it was. The last time I change a seal it was on a 26ft boat and access to the sail drive was only possible by squeezing into a narrow cockpit locker upside down and I still bear the scars!
I found that creating sensible work room is key to making it as easy as possible so I built a timber frame to sit in front of the engine, with the top surface level with the bearers and greased. After disconnecting the sail drive from the back of the engine I was then able to safely and easily pull the engine right out into the cabin. This then left the whole engine bay clear to be able to lift the sail drive up and in at the necessary angle but note you need to remove the prop first as it will not pass through the hole and if the height clearance is like mine, the prop shaft and lower bearing housing, which I planned to do anyway as I wanted to change the seals.
I did it single handed and I didn't feel that another pair of hands would have made much difference other than pulling the engine out/back in as there is only really space for one person to work below.
No casters, it just sat on the cabin floor which made it easy to get the top of the frame level with the top of the engine bearers
Not sure you really need to move it that far forward as the drive will come out through the side access hatches in the aft cabin. The guys who did mine removed the lower seal housing and shaft so that they could do this. Was not there to see what went on inside the boat, but 2 of them did it comfortably in a day although they were putting a new drive in which is less work than removing and replacing the diaphragm from the existing drive.
On my 1999 era B35 we initially moved the engine forward a few inches as per manual and then struggled for an hour to try removing the sail drive out through the side opening. Eventually gave up and put some old carpet down on the saloon floor, built a timber ramp and slide the engine right out. Made life a lot easier.
If this is being done in a yard, can't the saildrive be lowered to the ground once the motor is moved forward?
No, because the upper part is larger than the hole in the hull.
Reference to Magical Armchair's question, I had the saildrive seal/diaphragm on my B36(2002) changed during the winter months of 2010/11. At the time I was a brand new owner of a second hand boat, but with intentions of allowing the boat to be used for charter work, and so it needed to be in tip top condition. I was concerned that the seal was more than Volvo's recommended seven years of age maximum, and so had it changed. I need not have worried, the old seal came out looking as good as new. It is in my estimation a pretty tough and very hard wearing piece of kit. Ive since sold the boat, about two years ago. A friend has a boat that is not a Bavaria, but which has the same Volvo set up and his seal is now more than twenty years old and he has no intention of changing it yet. I have a feeling that someone, possibly within this group, posted a question asking if there were any known failures of the hull seal, and I don't think anyone came back with an affirmative reply. You say that you dont really want to do the job, but are curious to get the experience. It would be easy for me with no boat of my own to say don't bother, just leave it there, but I am quite happy to sail on my friends boat with his over twenty year old seal. So in my opinion, just leave it where it is and enjoy your sailing and maybe think about it in another ten years time.
As a follow-up to Salty's post directly above, I believe our saildrive seal is the original. We bought the vessel in 2017. It looks to be in perfect condition and the boat is mostly kept in fresh water. It only sees salt water when we cruise outside the locks on weekends or on extended trips during the summer. Quotes from local professional Volvo dealers are around US$5,000+ I keep postponing this but have a concern that our insurance may get nasty if a claim arises over a future seal failure. It seems a shame to throw big boat bucks toward something that isn't broken.
Thank you all. Mine is now ten years old and I do want to replace it (and there is some rust on the lip of the seal which encourages me to get it done, even though I have never noticed any water there.), so here we go. Planning time!
(https://i.imgur.com/GIi9ObMm.png)
The dry weight of a D2-55 is a staggering 250kg with the saildrive. Detach the saildrive and with all the "wet" weight, it'll still be around this weight when I try and wiggle the engine far enough forwards. I do like Stevie Hs method of creating a frame for the engine to slide forwards onto, however, I would also need to lift the engine as the sump is some way below the sole if I need more than the 30cm I will be able to shift the engine forwards by.
Some photos of the engine bay below (excuse the mess and the dirty engine - next job is to clean it):
(https://i.imgur.com/2fRGjI0h.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8yfEFD6h.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/jGiBSSKh.png)
So the plan is to create a frame here, that will allow me to slide that 30 or 40 cms forward.
(https://i.imgur.com/mPIPlTel.png)
The plan then is:
- Build the frame.
- Lift out.
- Remove the propeller and rope cutter.
- Drain saildrive oil.
- Unbolt the engine from the saildrive (as per the VP instructions that come with the seal)
- Take off the fuel lines, expansion tank hose, raw water hose, wet exhaust hose, stop and throttle cables and unplug the wiring loom.
- Slide the engine forwards by the most I can, onto the frame.
- Lift the saildrive into the boat, and pull it though the hatch on the stb side of the engine.
- Take it home, work on it, replace the seals on the drive itself, repaint and lovingly restore.
- Refit to boat, as per the VP instructions, following torque recommendations carefully.
- Slide engine back.
- Go sailing (and pray I don't sink!)
Some questions then:
- How on earth do I get the engine to slide forward? Walk it forwards with a lever under each side of the engine?
- With the back of the engine unsecured from the saildrive, will the engine balance on its "two front feet" and not topple backwards?
- I want to strip all the paint off back to aluminum and repaint the drive. What do you recommend to paint it with?
- I am going to unbolt the engine mounts from the boat, rather than the engine from the engine mounts, and then slide the mounts forward. Is that the correct method to move the engine?
- Anything daft in the above?
Suggest remove the lower seal housing and shaft as not only does this drain the oil better but makes it easier to get the leg out. You can check and replace the seals before re assembly (after the drive is in). I would be wary of stripping the paint off the drive unless it is coming away already or there is corrosion that is past patching.
if done the job by my self. but d1-30. at mine it was not nessecarry to remove the engine complete. i have to slide it about 10-12cm to the front.
i loose the engine mounts from the boat. my engine is shorter then yours so there was enough place to slide.
for me there was no need to loose fuel lines or electricity. they are long enough
bigest problem was, that the backwards past of the engine fall down and it was nearly impossible to lift it up again.
in spiring i have to do the job again an d decide to go another way.
1. unmount uper stairs
2. stable peace of would outside from side to side. think 10x10cm
3. take a rope with rols maybe 1to6 and lift the engine at his rings.
4. swing it the 10 cm to font to separate it from the sail drive
Quote from: MagicalArmchair on January 20 2023, 13:19
- How on earth do I get the engine to slide forward? Walk it forwards with a lever under each side of the engine?
- With the back of the engine unsecured from the saildrive, will the engine balance on its "two front feet" and not topple backwards?
- I want to strip all the paint off back to aluminum and repaint the drive. What do you recommend to paint it with?
- I am going to unbolt the engine mounts from the boat, rather than the engine from the engine mounts, and then slide the mounts forward. Is that the correct method to move the engine?
- Anything daft in the above?
You can attach a rope loop or ratchet strap to a fixed point forward. I used the compression post, table leg (low to avoid leverage) would also work. It didn't take that much heaving to haul the engine forward a bit. Support the back, on our MD22 at least there are no rear mounts - the saildrive is the rear support of the engine. So once they're separate, the engine rear would be unsupported. A sturdy plank and some wedges under the rear supported it. This is also essential when lining up the bolts to re-marry the two. The only difficult part was hauling the saildrive leg and gearbox up out of the hole, as they're still bloody heavy on their own (with oil drained and lower housing and shaft removed).
I used aluminium etch primer on the saildrive and it's still there years later. Velox plus sticks well to it :)
Thank you all, your experience is most helpful! The amended plan, with your expertise injected is below.
Anything else we can think of? I think I'll need to employ some help to get the sail drive into the boat...
- Build the frame.
- Lift out.
- Remove the propeller and rope cutter, lower seal housing and shaft.
- Drain saildrive oil.
- Remove the upper steps and rig a halyard to the lifting ring on the halyard.
- Unbolt the engine from the saildrive (as per the VP instructions that come with the seal), supporting the back of the engine with a metal bar or wood, also place some wedges down either side of the engine for extra security.
- Take off the fuel lines, expansion tank hose, raw water hose, wet exhaust hose, stop and throttle cables and unplug the wiring loom.
- Use the halyard to take up some of the weight of the engine, slide the engine forwards by the most I can, onto the frame, use a ratchet strap to the compression post to winch the engine slowly forwards.
- Lift the saildrive into the boat, and pull it though the hatch on the stb side of the engine.
- Take it home, work on it, replace the seals on the drive itself, repaint with aluminium etch printer and Velox and lovingly restore.
- Refit to boat, as per the VP instructions, following torque recommendations carefully.
- Slide engine back.
- Go sailing (and pray I don't sink!)
If you find that the lower shaft is badly scored where the 2 oil seals rub . replace the two 9mm wide seals with three 6mm wide seals , it moves the seal lip to unworn bits of shaft . 6mm wide viton seals are readily available from bearing suppliers. I did this many years ago and it is still going strong. Geoff
Geoff, do you have any photos?
I've started creating my frame.
(https://i.imgur.com/qNitsmeh.png)
That will sit in the space as so:
(https://i.imgur.com/zBUAqJlh.png)
With the space itself without the frame looking like:
(https://i.imgur.com/SyQALCwh.png).
I've run out of timber, should have the frame together this evening though...
(https://i.imgur.com/o2pCbxql.png)
Sorry no photos, its a generation thing! But the space for 2x9 equals 3x6. I was more concerned with keeping water out than oil in so the outer pair are lips out and the inner one lip in. It is about 10 years since I did it ,and at my last gaiter change about 3years ago no sign of wear. Geoff
Quote from: nightowle on January 19 2023, 19:48
As a follow-up to Salty's post directly above, I believe our saildrive seal is the original. We bought the vessel in 2017. It looks to be in perfect condition and the boat is mostly kept in fresh water. It only sees salt water when we cruise outside the locks on weekends or on extended trips during the summer. Quotes from local professional Volvo dealers are around US$5,000+ I keep postponing this but have a concern that our insurance may get nasty if a claim arises over a future seal failure. It seems a shame to throw big boat bucks toward something that isn't broken.
You could try asking your insurer that question, if you are planning to do the job anyway, then you have nothing to loose. But be sure you include in your question that you know there are many many other boat owners out there who have not changed their saildrive hull seal, and that as far as you know there have been no recorded incidents of any boat losses as a result of an owner not changing that seal, ask them if they have ever heard of a saildrive hull seal failure, and when was it, and have there been a lot of them. If they cant prove it happens regularly, then they are on the back foot if they want to insist that you change yours when the vast majority of evidence points to the seal having very considerable longevity. The Volvo seven year recommendation is just that, its only a recommendation. See what your insurers reply says. Id sooner keep that $5000 in my pocket or spend it on some other nautical goodies. Even taking 'er indoors out to somewhere nice would be a better spend, and might even be appreciated !!!
Quote from: Salty on January 27 2023, 19:28
Quote from: nightowle on January 19 2023, 19:48
As a follow-up to Salty's post directly above, I believe our saildrive seal is the original. We bought the vessel in 2017. It looks to be in perfect condition and the boat is mostly kept in fresh water. It only sees salt water when we cruise outside the locks on weekends or on extended trips during the summer. Quotes from local professional Volvo dealers are around US$5,000+ I keep postponing this but have a concern that our insurance may get nasty if a claim arises over a future seal failure. It seems a shame to throw big boat bucks toward something that isn't broken.
You could try asking your insurer that question, if you are planning to do the job anyway, then you have nothing to loose. But be sure you include in your question that you know there are many many other boat owners out there who have not changed their saildrive hull seal, and that as far as you know there have been no recorded incidents of any boat losses as a result of an owner not changing that seal, ask them if they have ever heard of a saildrive hull seal failure, and when was it, and have there been a lot of them. If they cant prove it happens regularly, then they are on the back foot if they want to insist that you change yours when the vast majority of evidence points to the seal having very considerable longevity. The Volvo seven year recommendation is just that, its only a recommendation. See what your insurers reply says. Id sooner keep that $5000 in my pocket or spend it on some other nautical goodies. Even taking 'er indoors out to somewhere nice would be a better spend, and might even be appreciated !!!
I am bleeding sure (as with nearly everyone else who have replaced these) that mine will be spotless. I've read in warmer latitudes they tend to degrade quicker, whilst in our cooler latitudes they appear to last indefinitely. I would have ignored mine, only there is some rust on the collar that makes me raise an eyebrow.
The boat is out, the frame is built and in place and the top items are complete. I'm favouring lifting the engine from a halyard, rather than propping it up as I fear for one it'll drop, and for two, it'll be tricky to move forward by the few feet I am going to require.
Question: What should I lift the engine on? Put a chain between the two lifting points and lift on that? Or lift on the REAR lifting point, on the wet exhaust to support the back of the engine and take as much of the weight as I can. The engine weighs in at 250kg (dry). (https://i.imgur.com/EzzCXGyh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vtQhgRlh.png)
Build the frame.Lift out.Remove the propeller and rope cutter, lower seal housing and shaft.Drain saildrive oil.- Remove the upper steps and rig a halyard to the lifting ring on the halyard.
- Unbolt the engine from the saildrive (as per the VP instructions that come with the seal), supporting the back of the engine with a metal bar or wood, also place some wedges down either side of the engine for extra security.
- Take off the fuel lines, expansion tank hose, raw water hose,
wet exhaust hose, stop and throttle cables and unplug the wiring loom. - Use the halyard to take up some of the weight of the engine, slide the engine forwards by the most I can, onto the frame, use a ratchet strap to the compression post to winch the engine slowly forwards.
- Lift the saildrive into the boat, and pull it though the hatch on the stb side of the engine.
- Take it home, work on it, replace the seals on the drive itself, repaint with aluminium etch printer and Velox and lovingly restore.
- Refit to boat, as per the VP instructions, following torque recommendations carefully.
- Slide engine back.
- Go sailing (and pray I don't sink!)
A quick update on this one. The saildrive is off and I've changed the diaphragm - "just" the refitting to go. The fact the engine is at least 250kg (likely more, as its 250kg dry weight) really showed, as I first tried moving the engine with levers and wedges however, it was clear until I had the engine actually hanging by chains I was never going to make any progress! To give enough room to get the drive out, the strainer and all raw water pipes were removed, all fuel hoses (replacing these anyway) and the CAV primary filter (that is in the bin too) were removed and the air filter was also taken off. To give enough "slack" to move the engine forward all engine electrics were disconnected also from the port side. Moving only a foot forwards gave enough space to slide
(https://i.imgur.com/IqOkHcJl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/MsN1i9hl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/DKVYX5ql.png)
Given how the engine is suspended, it helped "pull" the engine forward from the gearbox, however I can see re-engageing the engine with the saildrive is going to to a PITA, as I'm going to need to SLIDE the engine backward.
If anyone has any great idea how to do that single handed, I'm all ears :D
On my md22 I used pieces of 10mm diameter steel rod as rollers, Having lifted the engine a bit I removed the engine mounts and placed wooden beams 100mm x 50mmx 50cm under the mounting plates and over the engine beds. In between the two I placed a few bits of the roller. In my case it rolled forward and back without difficulty. Your wooden frame should act in the same way . Geoff
I just slid the engine back far enough for the already longish saildrive bolts to engage. Feet braced on the salon table leg, I don't remember this being very difficult.
Alignment took a bit of fiddling with the wedges supporting the rear end of the engine. Once the bolts engaged, tightening them in turns pulled the engine back into position with just a little shove required at the end to align the front engine mount bolts.
If you're struggling, I guess you could try some longer temporary bolts to pull them together, then replace them one by one as they close in, but with your fancy frame it should slide well enough. Try some grease on the wood if not! ;D
Justitie a suggestion. As I can't see the condition of your saildrive leg.
But the Volvo dealer where I live standard removes all paint and put a Alu primer followed by multiple layers of epoxy. When applied carefully it give a perfect barrier to slap your antifoul paint on..
Regs Ronald.
The saildrive leg is back on, however getting the engine engaged was a PITA. After three hours of wiggling and jiggling, levering and pushing, no luck. It's lined up and feels engaged, however I can't get the engine moved back the last three cms.
I bought some extra long bolts, however I'm a bit worried about just cranking hard on those to pull the whole lot together. If the splines are defiantly engaged, that would be fine, however I am unsure they are. I could split it all again and move it forward? I've left the gearbox in neutral, although the manual does state put it in reverse and turn the flywheel as you move it back - I'm not sure how you are supposed to do that whilst moving the engine.
A frustrating day of failure I'm afraid. I'm not sure how to move the engine that last bit.
Don't turn the flywheel, silly, go underneath the boat, stick the prop on and turn that. Much easier, same effect (with the gearbox in gear of course)! :)